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Kai Wisdom and Fighting Fantasy Mailing List gibberish #7

>I notice these two on a lot of people's want lists and finally managed to 
>acquire them.  These are glossy almost magazine style books.
>Neither book mentions Fighting Fantasy but Taks of Tantalon is labelled
>as a "Fantasy Questbook". 

They are considered a part of the series. After all, they use FF events and
characters, and were created by Jackson and Livingstone.

>I managed to pick up 3 other Fantasy Questbooks and wondered if someone 
>had a complete list of them.  The 3 others I found are:

Here is the list I am familar with:

Casket of Souls
Tasks of Tantalon
Helmquest
The Path of Peril
Starflight Zero
Ten Doors of Doom

Hope this helps!

Mark J. Popp

Yes I see Gallantaria (Tasks of Tantalon) in the old world on Titan

Where is Amarillia (Casket of Souls)?

Andrew Tumber

I've always thought that Amarillia was just Ian's way of starting a book
somewhere where Zagor was an unknown horror. After his previous two reigns
of terror on Allansia he could hardly appear again and no one know who he
was, and thus was less of a horror, people more likely to think 'Oh, it's
him again' rather than seeing him as a possibly undefeatable monster.

Chris

The back of Skullcrag says:

"with her fellow heroes, the grand wizard must travel the planes to the 
world of Titan..."

Which makes amarillia's off world (or other Dimensional)
status quite sure.
Andrew Tumber

Hi there people,

It seems I opened a can of worms with the Sorcery! debate, but that was
what I intended.  It seems that not everyone agrees it is the best work
of FF but everyone seems to respect it and enjoy it.  I don't think I
saw any responses on the mailing list that slagged the series.  Aardvark
made some interesting comments regarding the fact that he preferred
Ian's writing style more than Steves.  I have often heard it said that
Ian devised more cunning gamebooks than Steve (ala Deathtrap Dungeon,
Trial Of Champions etc) and I was wondering if this was the context in
which you preferred Ian's style, or just his writing style in general.
In terms of deviousness I think that Steve would equal, if not exceed
Ian.  Take what I consider to be the most devious gamebook of them all :
Creature Of Havoc.  I thought this book was a cunningly set out as they
come.  I also though House of Hell was quite tricky as well.  Don't get
me wrong though, I also love Ian's work.  The Ian books mentioned above
are obviously classics.  I remember hanging for Trial of Champions when
I heard a Deathtrap Dungeon sequal was on its way.  And I thought it
certainly lived up to its expectations.  Getting back to Sorcery!, the
reason it lingers in my memory so, is that having picked up a copy of
Shamutanti Hills when it first came out, I finished it successfully and
then couldn't find the other 3 books.  I was crushed.  Devastated.  My
life was over.  Ok, it wasn't quite that bad, but I was eager to
continue the quest.  

We had a relative that worked in a book store and I convinced my dad to
give her some money and she ordered the books.  Now, check this part out
and you'll see why I remember the day well :- a week or two later when
she finally had the books, she gave us a call and we went over to her
house to pick them up.  She lived in this really big old gothic house in
one of Melbourne's older suburbs, and it was winter. I remember getting
the books just as it was starting to get dark.  The adults started doing
their adult chit chat thing, and I went outside and remember sitting
against this oak tree and watching it get dark,  studying the old house,
soaking up the gothic atmospehere, and then looking at the books for the
first time.  That was the key.  I mean, you know, I know them inside out
now.  But that moment, captured forever in my memory, when I sat there
in that situation, and I thumbed through John Blanches illustrations,
and I saw my first illustrations of the Redeyes of Khare, the plains of
Baddu-Bak (I love that name), the first pictures of The Mampang Fortress
as you climbed over the peaks of Low Xaman, and there it was in the
distance with Birdmen flying over its spires.  Spine tingling stuff.  

So for you FF heads that didn't get the same from Sorcery!, I am sure
you also had similar experiences with other books.  Id be curious to
hear your same "spine tingling" moments.  After all, that is the true
essence of Fighting Fantasy, and not the rolling of the dice.  I'm you
all remember that feeling of getting a new unread book and wondering
what events lay before you.  If only I could erase the knowledge I had
of Sorcery! From my head so I could start all over again with that same
sense of msytery.

Until next time, 

Regards,

Darren Blizzard (The Analander)

Well, being only 18 now, I was too young when most of the first books came
out, but I remember getting my first FF books from a jumble sale for 10p
each when I was about eight. I bought Caverns of the Snow Witch, Temple of
Terror, Deathtrap Dungeon and House Of Hell. I remember enjoying Caverns of
The Snow Witch most and loving the thick black outlines on the
illustrations. When I first read the above four, I was staying at my
grandparents' house in Budleigh Salterton (a seaside town in South West
England). When I read House of hell, I was absolutely terrified. I reached
the part when you attempt to leave through the front door and find the man
with the goat head on his own and I stopped there. That book stayed under
the bottom bunk (I slept on the top one, the bottom was empty) for about a
week. I only really read it about four years afterwards, still worried that
I would find it too scary.

Dead of Night was the first book I ever ordered from a book shop, and I
found that scary as well, although not so scary that it had to reside under
my bed.

Crypt of the Sorcerer also scared me when I got it from Budleigh Salterton
library, and that had to stay under my bed also until the return date.

I used to be very easily scared....

I also have fond memories of shopping with my grandmother, and buying
Phantoms of Fear in London. We were both surprised to find it was written by
Robin Waterfield, a member of our family (my at least second cousin most
likely at least once removed). That was when I first discovered that the
books were not all written by Ian and Steve. I have never actually met
Robin, although he did send me a copy of Deathmoor when it was first
released.

Since Fighting Fantasy he has gone back to translating ancient greek again,
and the last one I believe he did was a small book of Epicurus.

Ciao,
Jam Norman

Hi all,

Thanks for your comments Jam.  Its amazing how so many different people
from over the world can get the same buzz from the same books.  Its
speaks volumes about the impact of Fighting Fantasy and makes me wonder
how it suddenly died.  I would be interested to see some statistics
regarding sales of the books towards the end, because it certainly seems
that the series has plenty of fans.  The amount of FF related web sites
is growing all the time.  I also wonder weather it is possible to draw
attention to this mailing list in a way that Steve, Ian and any other
related parties could see the amount of interest still generated by
their creation.  What do people think ?  Or is this too ambitious ?

Regards,

Darren Blizzard

Hmm, amazing how Ff has impacted the world. . Darren Blizzard. . .the
Blizzard software company, as in Diablo, right?  And then there was Darth
Maul being a conceptual design of ______, dang can't remember his name
right now.  I don't have a particular one-time memory, sorry. . but I
concur that House of Hades (as it was called in the U.S.) was spooky
indeed . . . I remember I was in 3rd grade when the WArlock of Firetop
Mountaincame out. . . many kids commented on the difficulty of the maze. .
. I also like the idea of the "Forest of Dreams" project . . . and I
reiterate, if I haven't said this before, that we may be entering a
fantasy renaissance in these next few years and beyond with the lord of
the Rings movie/ D& D movie, etc. . . so maybe there will be a track for
gamebooks again soon, and not to mention Diablo II, eh?

ahoy,

jason harris

Just out of interest, does anyone know if Awkmutes are mentioned anywhere
except Seas of Blood?

Jam Norman

no, I don't think so, although they do bear a big resemblance to the Hamakei 
I reckon.

Andrew Wright

At last, Out Of The Other Pits has received a less than meagre update. Now,
Spit Viper has a picture, Awkmute has been added, as have Ice Beast, Sand
Snapper and Elverine. This means I have completed my work on books 1-14 (I
may add a "men" section later, for all types of humans). The monsters from
Talisman of Death are not included because it is not set on Titan. Do not
ask why Great Danes are included, please.

I have also added a new feature: Secret text! This means that for some
monsters, the large black space under the picture (and name if you are
lucky) must be selected to be read. That may only be if you have black as
your main text colour. I'm not telling because it's a secret. This has
nothing to do with the fact that I am arse at programming web pages. The
secrets may be revealed at a later date (this does not mean that I am too
tired to sort them out now. Honest).

Ciao,
Jam Norman

Just a question, I haven't actually reached the legendary deathlord yet
though I suspect that you can use the sommerswerd against him (like gnaag in
book 12). Question - he is undead right? Doesn't that mean you do double
damage to him? Shouldn't this make him a complete pushover.

Campbell Pentney

I don't recall if he's undead or not, since it's been awhile since I read
#17.  However, he is definitely *not* a pushover, as you will discover
when you reach him. ;)

Mark J. Laird

If you could use the Sommerswerd to vaporize the Deathlord (like you do
with Gnaag) then few players would complain they had to fight him. :)

So no you can't do that. Also the Deathlord is not undead, so you'll
have to fight him as a normal enemy, and be satisfied with the +8 CS the
Sommerswerd gives you, and perhaps even more since I'm unsure if the
alternative weapon would count as any of the standard weapons (meaning
you would likely have to forsake your weapon bonuses as well.)

However, you might find it difficult even to get to the Deathlord, as
there are are several things/enemies that can reduce your Endurance to
dangerously low levels long before that.

Regards,
Robert Ekblad

hey. just thought i'd see some peoples opinions on this matter. mine would 
have to be #9 Cauldron of Fear or #17 the Deathlord of Ixia (these are for 
the US versions) i'm still not sure what the difference between the US and 
the UK versions, but i'm pretty sure the cover art is different. what about 
everyone else on the list, whats your favorite cover art?

Chainsaw Yak

My favorite cover art is the US version of LW #5 Shadow on the Sand.  I
enjoyed the action scene straight from the book, and it doesn't hurt that
#5 is my favorite book in the series either. :)

Mark J. Laird

While I certainly think the UK books are better when it comes to content, I
think best cover art should definitely go to the US versions.  The Captives
of Kaag has a nice cover, as does the Plague Lords of Ruel.

Carl Reyes

The US covers are nice, but the more I see of the French covers, the
more I like them.

Jon Blake

As far as I'm concerned, *all* the US covers ruin the feeling of Lone
Wolf. Now, the UK covers sometimes can be not that brilliant, but the US
covers are just pushing the limit. If they're not crap, they're just
copies of the UK versions, and still crap. 

LW1
From what I've seen, a Lone Wolf who looks nothing like himself, and a
Kraan or Zlanbeast in the background with some kind of human head. The
first Sparrow UK version was much better than this. The annoying thing
is, the later Beaver version was basically the same as the US one.

LW3
Ok, this one of the better US versions, but still, it took everything
from the pictures in the first versions.

LW8
This time a different but still looks-nothing-like-himself Lone Wolf.

LW10 
Lots of bears and wolves and stuff. Pppphhh.

LW12
Darklords following Lone Wolf. Whhaaat??

LW18
The same as the UK one, except reversed.

LW19
Basically another copy of the UK version, with that weird new Lone Wolf.

So, I've said it once, I'll say it again (sorry, Rob) - US = crap. In
terms of covers. 
-- 
Luke Goaman-Dodson

> LW1
> >From what I've seen, a Lone Wolf who looks nothing like himself,

Wait a second.  Lone Wolf is a book, not a movie.  We do not have a solid
person which the artist is to draw.  If it were Star Trek and one of the
characters were drawn different, then you can say that they look nothing
like the show.  However, all we have in books are physical descriptions.
From these, we develop our own idea of what the character looks like.
There is no one right way to depict Lone Wolf.  We may not like how he is
drawn, but who are we to say what is right?

Jeff

#10 - Dungeons of Torgar (Beaver edition)
You can find it on the Oasis.  I suspect most people
would never have encountered this edition of 10.

I haven't seen this one (#12), though it sure sounds silly. 
I daresay that if you are playing Masters of Darkness
and you find yourself in a situation where Darklords
are chasing you, you may have deviated a teeny bit
from the stealth plan.

Ryan O'Sullivan

I have to admit to not seeing the US covers, or not in such detail that I 
remember them, but being British, I'll have to say I agree.

Mark Robins

Okay.  I will TRY to limit myself to one reply here.

Simply put, some of us are British, some of us are American, some of us
are from elsewhere.  Tastes are different.  Publishers go with what they
think works best for their audience.  And, across the board, it seemed to
work.

Robert S. Hastings

Hang on a second, we know EXACTLY what Lone Wolf looks like. The original 
Lone Wolf is on the front of the UK edition of Flight from the Dark. Yes, 
that's right, him in the green cloak with the sword and the axe. As far as 
I'm concerned this is the original and definitive image of Lone Wolf.

Mark Robins

> Hang on a second, we know EXACTLY what Lone Wolf looks like. The original
> Lone Wolf is on the front of the UK edition of Flight from the Dark. Yes,
> that's right, him in the green cloak with the sword and the axe. As far as
> I'm concerned this is the original and definitive image of Lone Wolf.

Hang on another second.  We know EXACTLY what (I assume) Gary Chalk's
impression of Lone Wolf looked like in 1984.  But Joe Dever deals in
words, not pictures.  And other than what he wears and carries around (and
again, if I recall), you won't find any physical description of him until
"Trail of the Wolf", twenty-four volumes later.

More importantly, since this is a gamebook series, YOU are the star of
this show.  And that's why Dever left LW so vague throughout the early
part of the series.  If I recall, we don't even read word-for-word
dialogue from Lone Wolf until at least book 13.  I like that fact that
most gamebooks allow you to "fill in the blanks" for your character.
Trying to "stardardize" the character's appearance, personality, etc., can
only take away from that freedom.

rob hastings

>Hang on a second, we know EXACTLY what Lone Wolf looks like. The original
>Lone Wolf is on the front of the UK edition of Flight from the Dark. Yes,
>that's right, him in the green cloak with the sword and the axe. As far as
>I'm concerned this is the original and definitive image of Lone Wolf.
>
>Mark
>Sword Friend

I disagree. It's been nearly 40 (has it been 40 yet?) years in Magnamund
since LW1, and he has surely changed in physical appearance at least a
little. And he didn't even have the Sommerswerd back then...

Sam Bowker

Just to keep the debate going, what about the graphic novel The "Skull of 
Agarash"? The art might be a bit variable within (there were two 
illustrators), but for the most part, the image of Lone Wolf is very similar 
to Gary Chalk's on the front of LW1, that of the green cloak and hood, the 
sun brooch, the long blonde hair and the somewhat chiselled good looks. Now 
surely Joe isn't going to allow the art out unless its a little like how he 
imagined Lone Wolf would be. Therefore, if its his creation, he know what 
Lone Wolf looks like, and so do we, as I said before below.

Mark Robins

Yeah, this is probably how LW was supposed to look. Even in Wolf's Bane we
saw how he looked, not to mention the Legends books. In pretty much all of
these he looks quite similar. The Kai Lord in the New Order series also has
his image on nearly all of the covers too.

skarn

I think the long-haired figure on the US cover of Wolf's Bane is a bit too
effeminate.  The cover of the Captives of Kaag depicts a somewhat more rugged
adventurer with short, brownish hair.  I'm sorry, but just for the sake of the
debate, from a purely logistical point of view, this seems more accurate for LW.
He's rugged, powerful, and crawls through all sorts of things that would make that
long mane a bit excessive and inconvenient.  Very few knights had hair even down
to their shoulders during the medieval period, though noble fops certainly grew
their hair out.

Carl Reyes

While on this topic: is it just me or does the artwork on the cover of US 
#20 look like the cartoonish style animation of the old arcade game DRAGONS 
LAIR starring Dirk the Darring? That is the first thought that pops onto 
mind every time I look at that cover.

Don Copous

The french cover of LW 13. The cenerian druid is perfect, althought it
misses the green (jadin ?) mask.
I like the french N°10, with the drakkarim deathknight.

Fabrice Cadillon

Well, it *would* be weird if he changed from an elf-like brunette to a
short haired blonde in the US, and then decide to grow long hair. :) I
think the first picture is one of the best. The thing is, different
artists have different have different ideas about what things "should"
look like. This is especially true between Gary Chalk and Brian
Williams. Gary Chalk lends more to fantastic illustrations, and Brian
Williams to realistic. Both styles have their own virtues and drawbacks. 

And yes, it nearly has been 40 years I think.

Luke Goaman-Dodson

Lone Wolf looks like me! But he has a cool green cloak. Whenever I read
the books I assume his identity. Therefore Grey Star, Black Baron,
Scarlet Sorcerer, Etc. look like me too.

I like US #3 Caverns of Kalte's cover. It's a better picture of Vonotar
than #2, and the giant undead octopus monster makes for a cool
background.
  I also like the cover for the Forbidden City, because you get to see
Grey Star smash someone with his staff. I like Emerald Enchanter for a
similar reason.

Cool Sandwich

Hmm, well, I don't think Lone Wolf as very rugged myself - maybe I'm
wrong. It is funny though how men in fantasy literature are often
depicted as having long hair (in fact, men are often portrayed as
muscular brutes wearing loincloths - but that's a different subject
entirely), although it wasn't uncommon to have long hair in the middle
ages. And it may call for unfortunate confusion regarding gender (from
the back, of course).

Luke Goman-Dodson

Andrew Wright wrote on Aug 18:

>I remember another FF adventure from Warlock called Market Mayhem and set in 
>Blacksand. Basically it was a just a big free for all in the market place, 
>although some of the characters were fairly amusing (like the drunk dwarf 
>trying to buy a present for his wife after being  on a 3 day bender)

There was a highly pretentious tie-in adventure with 'The Riddling Reaver' called 
'The Dreaming Sands', overly influenced by Angela Carter, and which appeared in 
Warlock 13.

...which I must get round to copying now I'm back from the UK.

Coincidentally, while there I bumped by sheer chance into Steve Williams, co-author 
of Riddling Reaver (though he was in no way responsible for 'The Dreaming Sands'). 
Weird the way these coincidences happen.

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

Aardvark of Doom wrote on Aug 5:

>The Fighting Fantasy Mailing List - http://www.fightingfantasy.com
>
>Come on, I know some of their titles are similar to FF titles, but "Knights
>of the Round Table" and "Outlaws of Sherwood Forest", that's going too far.
>Yes, CYOA are crap but they couldn't really have had many alternative titles
>to King Arthur and Robin Hood books (and, for those interested in British
>folklore why don't Black Colin and William of Cloudslee get a mention.

William appears in my Robin of Sherwood gamebook, as does his fellow outlaw Clim 
of the Cleugh.

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

I was inspired to write this after tackling FF59 (Curse of the Mummy's Tomb 
- thanks again Graham), my first FF book in 3 and 1/2 years owing to a vast 
distance between myself and the lime green books. in the meantime i've been 
subsisting on Virtual Reality and Fabled Lands which are totally different 
in style and I was wondering what people preferred. Straight FF puzzlebooks 
like FF59 with hordes of exotic beasties from Out of the Pit, and numerous 
dead ends that do nothing but inspire rigorous cheating (unless you possess 
the mystical collarbone of an ox), OR actual stories (like Virtual Reality) 
with multiple paths to success that you find yourself returning to all the 
time, just to see how you could do it differently? for me it's definitely 
the latter - i like to be entertained, not moved to leaf through 400 
paragraphs looking for the number of pimples on the calf of the ebony troll 
idol but i was wondering what other people got out of flipping back and 
forth between 42 and 379.

fiction vs. puzzles?

cheers

andy wright

maybe it's because you chose FF59, definitely among the Top 3 crap FF
stories of all time, that you found it so boring
try reading Sorcery! or Creature of Havoc or House of Hell...

William Wood

I don't agree....Curse of the Mummy was good. The Egyptian setting was
different from the usual city/forest/haunted house location and the final
villain was a real challenge. Plus, I like Dracons.

Marian D. Perera

You can have both, but I take your point that different gamebooks vary
in their emphasis either on "game" or "book". I certainly prefer the open
format of Fabled Lands - that series could have been the start of a new
and exciting gamebook subgenre had it not been prematurely cancelled and
the gamebook "industry", if I can call it that, been allowed to wither
away (sterling online efforts excepted, of course).

Gamebooks as interactive fiction, offering the reader a network of
multiple paths, and possibly different endings as well, so that the
reader can shape his or her own narrative trajectory through the
book, are more interesting, I think, than those in which the author
shoves you along the one true path, any deviation from which will either
lead to a dead-end or death. In its extreme form, this would indeed turn
the gamebook into a puzzle-book, a kind of paper version of the old platform
style computer games, in which you simply have to battle your way through one
challenge in order to face the next. No real freedom there to explore.

I'd better not get too pompous about this, though. Puzzle-solving and
dice-rolling can be fun, so I suppose the best gamebooks are the ones
combining those elements with narrative and exploration (as in Fabled
Lands).

Graham Hart

yeah well I met the Dracon, but got frustrated banging my head against one 
too many sets of hieroglyphs. still, it was better than my first effort that 
saw me torn apart in the market of Rimon, barely four paragraphs in... 
ouch...
i would agree with Mr W that, whilst maybe not a top3 crapster, it is dodgy 
and not a good example to base an arguement on. still, after 42 long months 
without SKILL or STAMINA, i was hoping for better.i did meet the greatest 
actor in Allansia though, not something to dismiss lightly on the 
adventurer's c.v..

cheers

andy wright

Hmm, not a bad comment at all . . and note those are all Steve Jackson
gamebooks that you recommend . . . definitely the  best aspects of the
gamebooks was the opportunity to have DIFFERENT ways of "winning"--not
just searching time after time for the "correct" path among the hay, like
the damned needle of the adage, (I've yet to read the "mummy" one however,
butthe illustrations look good and I bet my mother would love it--she's
fascinated with egyptian culture

ahoy,

Jason Harris

Personally, I always prefer the ones where different routes lead to the end
warlock/monster/demon/whatever, and that the route you take determines how
difficult the final fight is.

Jonathan Kaye

"Chap with the wings there, five rounds rapid." - Brigadier Alistair Gordon
Lethbridge-Stewart.

I like the Brig too.

Marian D. Perera

--- "J. Harris" <ujmhlord@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> Hmm, not a bad comment at all . . and note those are
> all Steve Jackson
> gamebooks that you recommend

Steve's easily the winner in the old steve vs. ian argument...

(I've yet to read
> the "mummy" one however,
> butthe illustrations look good and I bet my mother
> would love it--she's
> fascinated with egyptian culture
> 

maybe so, but 'curse of the mummy' ain't exactly original
there must have been at least a hundred dodgy '50s B-movies with
creaking sets and ropey monsters with a similar title... if FF writers
are going to steal things, they shouldn't make it this obvious (or have
this bad taste)

William Wood

IMHO, that's being a teeny bit harsh.

I saw #59 more as a kind of return to the early FF style (i.e. numbers 1
to about 26) - and I didn't, personally, mind it at all. Wouldn't call
it my /favourite/, either, mind you ;-)

All the best,
Simon Smith

IMHO, that's being a teeny bit harsh.

I saw #59 more as a kind of return to the early FF style (i.e. numbers 1
to about 26) - and I didn't, personally, mind it at all. Wouldn't call
it my /favourite/, either, mind you ;-)

All the best,
Simon

Hey all,

I'm kind of late getting to this one so I may be off the pace a bit, but I
always thought that one of the good things about the series is that it was
big enough to cater for numerous tastes. I personally will go for good plot
over good puzzles, but I know of others who enjoy the process of gnashing
their teeth over what appear to me insane conundrums. Hell, from time to
time a book like Creature of Havoc came out and kept everybody happy. Having
said that, I haven't read #59, although I have read quite a few of the later
series and kind of have a theory that a diminishing ability to reinvent
itself may well have led to its decrease in sales, and ultimately to its end
of production. Sounds to me like this 'Mummy' business may have been
indicative of this, still, I haven't read enough of the later series to try
and pass myself off as though I am an expert.

What are everybody else's views on the later books in the series as opposed
to the early ones?
Better/Worse?

Cheers.

Adam Hodgkiss

I am afraid I cant comment on the later books in the series either.
Although I collected them when they came out, I was doing study etc at
that time and probably havent read any of the books from about 45
onwards.  In 2 weeks, when I am in my house, I shall certainly be
reading them and hopefully enjoying them.

Regards,

Darren Blizzard

Is it possible there may be a parallel Earth in Aon? Probably not...

Luke Goaan-Dodson

Anything's possible, but that's never been a big concern in the LW
saga...

Steve Farrar

I reckon the crapest FF of all time was Beneath Nightmare Castle, with
possibly Scorpion Swamp running a close second.  Any other opinions on
this issue ?

Regards,

Darren Blizzard

I beg to differ!  I find all FF books, no matter how poorly written, still much better than other gamebook series out there.  I've played the D&D gamebooks (borrowed them from friends), Grailquest (got the first 6 or 7 of them...) and Skyfall series (first 2) and neither were worth the paper they're printed on.  True definitition of crap!!  Bad experiences with those series made me wary of FF-wannabes, and as a result of that, I missed out on the excellent (by word of mouth here on the list...) Way of the Tiger, Fabled Lands and Lone Wolf series.  Grrr...

In terms of bad FF gamebooks, neither Scorpion Swamp and Beneath Nightmare Castle approached the level of Forest of Doom in sheer wretchedness and shoddy writing.  Unoriginal stuff like F of D is the reason that I will always prefer Steve Jackson as an FF writer.  Granted, not all of his creative ideas worked (Starship Traveller for instance) but they are all interesting and fresh.  People may prefer Ian for his literary style, but I'll take Steve's creativeness over Ian's run-of-the-mill style of gamebook writing any time!! (this is not intended as a flame...)

Michael Wong

Michael Wong had some interesting comments regarding my statements about
crap FF's.  They are fair enough comments too.  I must disagree on one
point though.  As you said, a lot of other gamebooks series are not
worth reading, but I must protest regarding Grailquest and defend it.  I
thought Grailquest was excellent and the humourous style in which it was
written made me laugh a lot.  Also, the adventures were very devious and
hard, and the combat/magic system was great.  I have all the Grailquests
and I think they are up there with FF.  I also think that the Lone Wolf
series was pretty good, but I have not read anough of them to really
comment on its long term consistancy - I only read the first 3.

Regards,

Darren Blizzard

Almost everybody else liked it I'm sure, but I just couldn't get into Chasms
of Malice. I don't know why. Maybe it is because I had at the time grown
weary of every book having to save the entire world. Maybe it was because I
was asked to believe that this cook was in fact some tremendous fighting
hero (what is this - a Steven Seagal movie?) or maybe it was all the damn
cyphers. Whatever. Maybe I should go back and have another look at it, it
could well have just been me at the time. Still having said that there even
was one part of the book I did like, that escape scene with all the one
strike combats was actually exciting reading. Hmm, maybe I'm wrong here.
I'll go back and have a quick look.

Adam Hodgkiss

Actually, I have often heard Appointment with FEAR and starship
traveller as much maligned.  I personally thought these books were very
good - very original.  Rings of Kether and Space Assassin were other
great deviations into Sci-Fi.  I loved Rebel Planet as well but to this
day I have never completed it !! *emabarrssed look*.  Anyway....that's
my 2 cents worth :-)

Regards,

Darren Blizzard

I have enjoyed all the ff books I have read BUT Starship Traveler is my
least favorite. Alright it was original and had loads of potential but
it could all be over before your pencil has started to blunt. If you're
lucky you can make it last a good 45 mins - any longer and your at
junior school reading level. My favorites are House of Hell (based on
my next door neighbours house) and Citadel of Chaos (it was the first
book I bought). I thought ship of fools was cleverly done but could be
very frustrating. I have no particular preference between Ian or Steve,
I enjoy enjoy them all. Any votes on your favourites and why?.

Dave Sherry

Favourites?

Well, I'm a Creature of Havoc fan but there are quite a few I enjoyed more
than ther others. I actually thought, some plot devices aside, that Seas of
Blood was pretty good. Warlock of Firetop Mountain, not least because it
started the whole series. Deathtrap Dungeon as far as I'm concerned still
stands as the benchmark of what the traditional fighting fantasy adventure
is. You absolutely cannot beat it if you are just writing a straight up
gamebook, the only way you can improve is by adding different elements to
the game, as in Creature and Seas. Having said that, there were very few
that I didn't get into, and not everything had to be as intricate as
Deathtrap Dungeon, as complex as Creature of Havoc nor as epic as Warlock
for me to enjoy them. Almost every book has its own charm, to a greater or
lesser degree. Interested to see others thoughts on this.

Adam Hodgkiss

I agree on Deathtrap Dungeon.  A brilliant bit of work.  Cant go past
City Of Thives though I still say Sorcery! Had more atmosphere than any
of the books, which is why it is so close to my heart compared to
regular FF's.  Temple Of Terror, Rings Of Kether, Trial Of Champions all
are good.  Talisman Of Death was different.  Demons Of The Deep was a
bit weak.  So was Sword of the Samurai.  Creature of havoc was devious.
And yes, the original 7 are still the ones that spark that magic in
me....except for maybe Starship Traveller, although that along with
Deathtrap were the first I bought wayyy back in 1984 when they
individually colored spines and not green spines.  Other peoples
thoughts are.....?

Regards,

Darren Blizzard

Agreed, the first seven books are superb, although I must admit to 
not liking Starship Traveller much at all.  It was a brave experiment 
that just didn't work, IMO.  I have played through them all in the 
last few months.  Deathtrap Dungeon is undoubtedly the best of 
the early books.  It took me seventeen attempts to play through it 
again, and I still remembered the path through it too.  I guess that's 
what I get for never cheating, though :)

Most of the others you mentioned I agree with, although I haven't 
read Rings Of Kether or Sorcery, but I must say that I thought 
Sword Of The Samurai was really good.  Mind you, I haven't played 
it for nigh on ten years, but the oriental atmosphere made for a 
welcome change from the regular fantasy style.  Plus I was 
obsessed with samurai and ninjas at the time!

My vote for the worst FF ever must go to Scorpion Swamp.  It was 
kind of fun, but it doesn't really have much going in the way of a 
story.  It does have the distinction of being the first book to feature 
an opponent with a skill greater than 12, though.

- Nathan Mahney -

But in Creature of Havoc the damn numbers didn't add up! to get into the
place you need to go!

At least in the Dell version in the states. .and otherwise a fantastic
book, clever premise etc.

Jason Harris

I agree with you Adam, any book by Luke Sharp drove me to tears as they were 
endless and rather difficult to map, not to mention boring. Shame as the 
ideas and monsters were very nifty.Anyway, I'm off to the pool downstairs 
with a beer and some smokes to resume my struggle with  Curse of the Mummy's 
Tomb, Sith preserve me! I'm bringing Virtual Reality 5 (Heart of Ice) as 
back up; best sci fi gamebook i've ever read, and probably my favourite 
gamebook ever. A big call, but it reads better than most FF, plus there's a 
fantastic scene at the end when a bunch of megalomaniacal adventurers 
(including yourself) slug it amidst a ruined city. I couldn't compare it to 
a single FF title I'm afraid...

cheers

andy wright

Yeah well, Creature was tough but the fact that it had such a well developed
plot almost demanded that it should be. I don't even particularly enjoy the
over the top hard games, I just thought everything came together on this
one. Stil, in the Aussie version the numbers added up so that may have also
helped!

Adam Hodgkiss

Amen brother!
i just finished reading this one recently...it was
pretty bad. the book seemed to kill you off for no
apparant reason. i must have died about 20 times in
that book, doing nothing worse than picking the wrong
passage at a T-junction.

As far as worst book, I'd have to pick Sky Lord.  I
still have no clue what that book was about.
As far as worst writing, i'd have to pick Masks of
Mayhem....
Actual passage from story:

You head north for a day and nothing happens.

(there were many passages similar to this)

Now that i'm done griping, i must say that all the
other books in the series I've read i've enjoyed
tremendously!

Jeff Poteralski

One thing about Sky Lord that puzzled me was that at the end, when L'Bastin
is dying, he says the perfect warrior is...and the text says something
like, "you gasp with horror; no, the perfect warrior couldn't be....!" I
still haven't figured out who the perfect warriors are, or why you, a tough
Sky Lord, should be so shocked to hear this.

Marian D. Perera

I have to agree with those who say that Seas of Blood is a good book. Okay,
the plot could have gone further and the ending wasn't particularly
brilliant, but it was a good idea and I loved the combat with the cyclops at
the end.

Also, I've forgotten who said Beneath Nightmare Castle was crap, this I
totally agree with. Perhaps not as bad as some of the sci-fi ones but for an
FF set on Titan it was by far the worst. Even the illustrations were bad,
only the close up of Senyakhaz being any good at all. As for Scorpion Swamp
however, call me an old nostalgic if you want, but it was the first FF that
I ever bought and, even though it is too easy, I am still very fond of it.

The idea of the Blackadder-based gamebook however, why do I get the feeling
that this could work? As long as you don't have to just play Edmund of
course. I wanna be Percy (would be taken for a fool if it weren't for the
fact that he wouldn't know a decent joke if it came up and bit him, rides a
horse slightly less well than another horse would etc etc). Although quite
what the ultimate aim would be I don't know - escape from the front lines of
WWI, form the Black Seal and take the throne of England from Richard IV? Oh
well.

Chris

Hi,

 I could never get in to Citadel of Choas/Starship Traveller, however its
been a long time since I played them both and maybe after what seems like a
decade I may well enjoy them both. I found Citadel of Choas just to hard,
and Starship Traveller just boring, mind u at the time I wasn`t that keen on
SCFI.

Martin Knight

I still remember a ghoul which sinks its teeth into your "buttocks" or
something like that in Citadel of Chaos--a book I really liked, partly I
believe because you were a badass warrior who also used magic :)

ahoy,

Jason Harris

Is it true that Dell published Creature of Havoc?  I thought Dell dropped the 
series after Trial of Champions.  If they didn't, when did they drop the 
series?
--Matt Konig

You're right, it was the Puffin book, not a Dell book that i read. . jsut
checked . .so did anyone else have this trouble? I figured out the secret
language and all that and supposedly had the right number trick to enter
the lair through that crystal sphere (I'm not checking details right now
sorry) and I remember it didn't take me to the right page . . . so were
just some of the books defective?  Does everyone else recall winning the
book and having the numbers all add up at that part?  Again--I'm talking
about when you are supposed to enter the realm of the bastard who's hiding
in the sphere portal.

ahoy,

J. Harris

> I reckon the crapest FF of all time was Beneath Nightmare Castle, with
> possibly Scorpion Swamp running a close second.  Any other opinions on
> this issue ?

Two words: Sky Lord. (And what's the deal with that outright ugly
(yellowish!) cover?)

The best thing about that book was the title - it didn't follow the
otherwise cliched formula of  ____ of the ___, or just plain ____ of ____.
Not that I mind those titles either, but there are so many of them that it
just makes me notice it when the title follow a different formula.

I usually found the SF books to be less interesting than the Fantasy ones,
especially so books set in Titan.

Of the two titles above, I certainly like Scorpion Swamp for its original
concept of being able to follow your own path, go wherever you like, even
back to areas where you have been before. I also liked the idea of working
for different kinds of masters. The problem is that the concept is a bit too
huge for only 400 paragraphs. An 800-paragraphs Scorpion Swamp could have
been _really_ interesting! :-)

Cheers,
Svein

Well, for Svein and anyone else who liked the ability to explore as you
liked, even back-tracking, wait for "Rat Trap" (sequel ro "Rat Catcher"
which should be on Mark's website as soon as I locate the disk that it's on
in all these boxes). Set in Blacksand, the wandering around the streets
alone takes over 1000 paras and then theres all the bits of combat and
additional puzzles and exploration. It is a bit of a large project so is
going to take a lot of time, but it should end up being the largest single
gamebook (it's impossible to split it up as the Sorcery! series was as you'd
have to have options like "Turn to book 1, reference 27" and keep skipping
from one book to another just to walk down the street).

Chris

Hi all,

You are correct about Creature Of Havoc and its numbers.  I recall that
a small insert was attached to my copy when I bought it that mentioned
the printing mistake and how to correct it.  That was in the Australian
edition, which I think is the same as the UK edition.  Any UK FF heads
out there get something similar ?  As for opinions on FF best and worse,
its amazing how different things appeal to different people.    I
suppose that all the FF's are good in their own way.  I don't really
think I despise any of them.  Really, it seems some are weaker than
others, but Starship Traveller for example, still had elements that I
thought were pretty cool --> such as that race who lived too long and
were killed off if they were out after curvew - those praying mantis
looking things.  

Those people that havent read Rings Of Kether should try and get a copy.
Its very cool.  You are a sort of undercover operative trying to smash a
drug ring.  All in a nice sci-fi setting.  There are some really
atmospheric elements in this book.  Anyway, that's all in my opinion of
course ! :-)

Regards,

Darren Blizzard

Hello Darren,

  I was wondering if you could quote the info on the insert that corrects
the mistake--it would give closure to a frustrating experience! I put a
lot of work in 'winning' that gamebook only to find the numbers didn't
work!  Anyhow, if you can hunt up that correction I'd be interested--I had
the UK version . . . though I'm from the U.S. I ended up ordering all the
gamebooks internationally when I discovered they were being printed
outside the U.S . . . plus I wanted to update myself on the world of Titan
to prepare for writing the gamebook manuscript I wrote only
to find the series was cancelled alas.  (This complaint bears repeating I
figure).

ahoy,

Jason Harris

Chasms of Malice (and also Fangs of Fury) - well, there was just
something about them. I would (personally) consider them the most
unenjoyable of the whole series, though I'm not entirely sure why.
Battleblade Warrior was (I found) a little like this, though it did have
a few redeeming features.

Certainly when you compare it to a book like Moonrunner they fade into
insignificance :-)

> I'm bringing Virtual Reality 5 (Heart of Ice) as  back up; best sci fi
> gamebook i've ever read, and probably my favourite  gamebook ever.

Coo, it /is/ rather good, isn't it? ;-) Certainly the best sci-fi
gamebook /I've/ read, so far.

No. 2 in that series (Down Among the Dead Men, IIRC) was also pretty
fab. I'd like to get my hands on them actually...

Simon Smith

Oh no!

If we're going to be getting onto favourites, well...

Here's a brief list :-) (in no particular order):

Moonrunner
Legend of Zagor
Revenge of the Vampire
House of Hell
Talisman of Death
Masks of Mayhem

There are probably loads of others I'd add, on further reflection, but
they're the ones that jump out at me as I glance at my FF shelves.

I don't know if any of the above are particularly controversial, are
they? I often find myself amazed at what some people say about the books
which are (IMveryHO) the better ones.

> I reckon the crapest FF of all time was Beneath Nightmare Castle, with
> possibly Scorpion Swamp running a close second.  Any other opinions on
> this issue ?

Surely not.
Beneath Nightmare Castle is one of my favourites, though I'm not as fond
of Scorpion Swamp as I am of some. Still wouldn't say it was anywhere
near being the worst one, mind you.

Simon Smith

the best ones are;

Kharé: Cityport of Traps
The Crown of Kings
Creature of Havoc
House of Hell
Citadel of Chaos
Spectral Stalkers

William Wood

> "Revenge of the Vampire" was CRAP!!

Oh? It would be nice to hear more about why you feel so. Not so that I can
dissect your opinion, but because I am interested. :-)

Personally I enjoyed that book immensly. Not only because it was a follow-up
to one of my other favourite FF books (Vault of the Vampire), but because it
had a very interesting story to it. RotV was a role-playing campaign crammed
into a gamebook, as opposed to a dungeon or castle or other limited physical
area. I like this kind of epicness, that you can travel around and the quest
can take on a different meaning toward the end. (Sorcery, anyone?)

(Did anyone else have the feeling that the Vampire-books (especially "Vault
of...") has a Warhammer RPG-feel to them? Names like "Sigfried" and the like
fits perfectly in the Old World, as does the more gothic feel to the
adventures that come across in the books.)

On the other hand, the book has a few logistic errors in it. I had to kill
off the same NPC (Igor?) at two different points in the book once. You're
supposed to get a ring the first time you kill him, and a check for this
ring is supposed to prevent you from meeting him later. This checking isn't
excactly waterproof.

> > House of Hell

Glad to see this book on your list - it's definately a top 3 for me (the
other two probably being "Warlock of FM" and "Creature of Havoc". And "Crypt
of the Sorcerer". And "Magehunter". And... (you know how the story go).

> the best ones are;
>
> Kharé: Cityport of Traps
> The Crown of Kings
> Creature of Havoc
> House of Hell
> Citadel of Chaos
> Spectral Stalkers

I must say I like all of these a lot! Stamp of approval!

Cheers,
Svein

Of the other VR adventures, Necklace of Skulls was also good, but the others drove their 
editor (a good friend of mine) nuts, and pretty well severed a friendship! 
Perhaps best avoided.

Certainly if I do get an electronic Heart of Ice published, I'd be following it up 
with the two mentioned above, followed, perhaps by my never-published 'Red 
Dragon Pass'.

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

the more the FF series progressed, the more boring it got... the
problem with books like "Knights of Doom" and "Tower of Destruction",
was that they were basically standard FF books, but not as well written
as the Steve Jackson ones... "Revenge of the Vampire" and "Curse of the
Mummy" were the worst - nothing original, and not badly or well
written, just boring
"Vault of the Vampire" wasn't one of the best ever, but was still good,
but I was bored very soon in the sequel, and even more in "...Mummy".
alright, it wasn't crap, just pointless

I haven't actually read "MageHunter" (only FF book I don't have) but
I'm being sent a copy and from what I've heard it's more original than
most of the 30s+ books in the series. best books in the 30s+ were
definitely "Spectral Stalkers", "Vault of the Vampire", "Island of the
Undead", "Dead of Night", because they were different, but
well-written. "Master of Chaos", "Night Dragon", "Keep of the
Lich-Lord" & "Legend of Zagor" were also quite good, but maybe a bit
boring. "Black Vein Prophecy", "The Crimson Tide", "Slaves to the
Abyss" and "Spellbreaker" were original, but not written well enough
(I'm expecting to get hate mail from Paul Mason now..), while
"...Mummy", "Revenge... Vampire", "Deathmoor", were just BORING.

the Warhammer RPG was great except for the over-difficult to play
system, but it's got that kinda gothic/dark feel like in "Vault of the
Vampire". Personally, I think Warhammer stole a lot from FF, but no-one
noticed because the people who do FF or Warhammer are usually different
- if you look at the chaos warriors used in Warhammer (e.g. the picture
in Trial of Champions) they're exactly the same as Warhammer chaos
warriors. and then there's the 'grinning sun' logo on some early maps
of Allansia/Kakhabad. and then, a few years later, it turns up on orc
banners in warhammer and as the evil sunz logo in 40k. hmm...

by the way, if anyone's read this far:

DOES ANYONE KNOW WHO WROTE "BLOODBONES", WHAT IT'S ABOUT, AND IF THE FF
WRITERS ARE ON THE MAILING LIST, AND EITHER THE ONE WHO WROTE
"BLOODBONES" IS READING THIS OR IF SOMEONE WHO KNOWS HIM (OR HER?) -
THEN IS THERE ANY CHANCE I COULD GET MY HANDS ON THE FINISHED
MANUSCRIPT?? OR A PHOTOCOPY OR SOMETHING???

William Wood

Interesting points. One comment though:

> Personally, I think Warhammer stole a lot from FF, but no-one
> noticed because the people who do FF or Warhammer are
> usually different

I'm sure most of you know this, but Graeme Davis, author of "Midnight
Rogue", was also one of the authors of the many classic Warhammer FRPG
adventures from the 80's (Death on the Reik, Power Behind the Throne etc.).

Too bad they never went for a gamebook series completely set in the
Warhammer world. Now, that could have had potential!

Cheers,
Svein

never realised that... I'll have to go and pull out all my old
warhammer frpg modules then

William Wood

What?!? If a friendship was ruined because of a single gamebook (which
sounds pretty amazing), may i suggest that the friendship must have had a
strange character to begin with?!? Just seem to incredible to me.

Cheers,
Svein

Red Alert! There is a special page on Bloodbones
<http://www.fightingfantasy.com/ffb60.htm> that will answer all your
questions. Also check the FAQ for some other background info. In short, it
was never published. It probably doesn't exist, except in name.

Mark J. Popp

Yay!
I agree entirely. Having struggled through the two of them (trying my
best not to cheat, even SLIGHTLY) just a day or two ago I can safely say
they're both pretty fab.

The basic continuity thing has also been a huge plus-point as far as
I've been concerned, too (I mean, look at the Zagor epic - three
gamebooks, one novel he features in, and another four all about him. And
the boardgame. Wow! :-))

The epicness of "Revenge" is something nearly unmatched in any other
book (there are some exceptions ... the books seemed to 'grow' as they
went on towards the final few).

A strange thought struck me too ... I think that Revenge (and the first
one, to some extent) would make a great "Resident Evil"-style game.
Don't you? :-) (coo, that comment could be controversial).

> (Did anyone else have the feeling that the Vampire-books (especially
> "Vault of...") has a Warhammer RPG-feel to them? Names like "Sigfried"
> and the like fits perfectly in the Old World, as does the more gothic
> feel to the adventures that come across in the books.)

I found that it was best to read these two after having read Pratchett's
excellent (IMHO) "Carpe Jugulum" ;-)

> On the other hand, the book has a few logistic errors in it. I had to
> kill off the same NPC (Igor?) at two different points in the book
> once. You're supposed to get a ring the first time you kill him, and a
> check for this ring is supposed to prevent you from meeting him later.
> This checking isn't excactly waterproof.

I didn't find that particular one, but I do recall some time where I
ended up going round in circles a bit, and thinking that something was
definitely amiss. But the rest of the book's general wonderfulness made
up for it, really!

> "Revenge of the Vampire" was CRAP!!

OMG! Blasphemy!

I have to say I'm a big fan of Keith Martin and all the stuff he wrote
(was that his real name?) I spent all weekend on the two vampire ones,
and now I'm onto Island of the Undead, which I also think has a certain
something about it which makes it quite cuddly. That's just my opinion,
of course.

Simon Smith

On Mon 30 Aug, Paul Mason wrote:
> Of the others, Necklace of Skulls was also good, but the others drove
> their  editor (a good friend of mine) nuts, and pretty well severed a
> friendship!  Perhaps best avoided.

I read the first six - were there ever any more than that?

Anyway, you've probably stated this several times before, but were you
involved in writing Heart of Ice? I do seem to recall becoming obsessed
with it for a while at one point a few years ago, after stumbling over
it inadvertantly in a small local library one day. Kyle Boche and all
that (now wasn't he unpleasant? See, I still remember all these things,
after all these years... how exciting!)

> Certainly if I do get an electronic Heart of Ice published, I'd be
> following it up  with the two mentioned above, followed, perhaps by my
> never-published 'Red  Dragon Pass'.

Anyway, that's enough drivel for one lifetime.

Simon Smith

Mr W wrote on Aug 31:

>boring. "Black Vein Prophecy", "The Crimson Tide", "Slaves to the
>Abyss" and "Spellbreaker" were original, but not written well enough
>(I'm expecting to get hate mail from Paul Mason now..), 

No chance. That's more complimentary than I usually get...

What pisses me off about those books is there's too much bloody travelling. 
Same with my role-playing games. I've only recently managed to get over this 
fascination with travelling.

>the Warhammer RPG was great except for the over-difficult to play
>system, but it's got that kinda gothic/dark feel like in "Vault of the
>Vampire". Personally, I think Warhammer stole a lot from FF, but no-one
>noticed because the people who do FF or Warhammer are usually different

Wrong, wrong. Any resemblances come about because GW people wrote FF 
books, and GW artists drew FF books. Warhammer predates FF anyway.

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

>The Fighting Fantasy Mailing List - http://www.fightingfantasy.com
>
>On Mon 30 Aug, Mr W wrote:
>> "Revenge of the Vampire" was CRAP!!
>
>OMG! Blasphemy!
>
>I have to say I'm a big fan of Keith Martin and all the stuff he wrote
>(was that his real name?)

The way I heard it was that Keith Martin was Carl Sergeant at a point when he 
was embarrassed about writing FF.

Could be wrong.

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

Having had some free time on my hands of late (which won't last long, I
assure you), I've decided to contribute my favourite FF books.

<Tristan puts on sword proof, bullet proof, and flame proof armour at this
point>

Daggers of Darkness, the book that introduced me to the world of Fighting
Fantasy, is still regarded as one of my favourite FF books. Why? I guess the
"quest" atmosphere against a backdrop of a (apparently) nomadic Mongolian
atmosphere really appeals to me. Lot of effort required to find the true
path(s), and there are a lot of red herrings on the way. Like Paul Mason
(although I am not an author), linearity is my greatest enemy, as I am sure
it is for most of you too. Why bother writing a gamebook if there aren't
going to be a variety of options available to the reader.

Deathtrap Dungeon again rates highly on my scale, as it does for the
majority of the people on this list. Yes, it does have that classic,
unequalled "RPG" feel to it, as does Trial of Champions. In fact, I'm not
sure why many authors didn't continue to produce specific "dungeon" (though
not specifically "dungeon / quest" as is the case with Deathtrap and Trial)
adventures. The atmosphere, and total lack of linearity allow this style to
be considered the archetype for all other gamebooks.

For non-linearity purposes, The Warlock of Firetop Mountain also provides a
good atmosphere for this genre. However, frequently getting completely lost
in the Maze of Zagor only resulted in me turning to paragraph 106 (or is it
108?) to leave the confounded labyrinth!

Well, I must admit (sorry, Paul) that the first time I read Slaves of the
Abyss, I hated it! However, this was because I had (obviously) chosen the
wrong path, which presented me with a sub-standard ending. Upon further
reading (oops, playing) of the book, the political intrigue that surrounded
Kallamehr really broadened my perspective of the book, and allowed me to get
a greater satisfaction from the storyline. Actually, writing the solution
for the books was great fun too. Check it out at fightingfantasy.com if the
book is giving you a hard time.

I also have a problem with space / futuristic FF adventures. Starship
Traveller and the Rings of Kether rate poorly on my scale of enjoyable FF
adventures. Whilst the mediocre (but plausible) Space Assassin and Star
Strider did little to encourage my interest in the futuristic style
adventures, I can't help but admire <gasp>.... Rebel Planet and Sky Lord!
(critice me if you will) but in my mind, these are probably the best
futuristic based FF adventures ever written. Although Rebel Planet was quite
linear, if you didn't get the required information along your travels, there
was no hope of finishing the book (bar cheating). Sky Lord, I believe, was
also quite good, as the (somewhat irrelevant) scenarios that you encountered
on your way to solving an otherwise easy mission were quite entertaining. I
like the idea of being a bounty hunter too (which works well in Moonrunner,
but not so much in Star Strider).

For an brilliant, epic quest adventure, I can't go past Crypt of the
Sorcerer. While Creature of Havoc could also be classed in this category,
I've only appreciated this book recently (i.e. after I acquired the solution
at Mark Popp's site!). However, I never noticed an error in my readings of
Creature of Havoc, and I'm from Australia! Anyway, The various and
entertaining sub-plots in Crypt of the Sorcerer, which cannot be dismissed
as irrelevant (as they give you items required to complete the book) allow
it to be considered in my mind to be a thoroughly enjoyable book.

Oh dear. Now for my gripes.  Stealer of Souls never appealed to me. Although
in some respects it presents a somewhat complex storyline, it is an
otherwise bland adventure. Many of the boring futuristic adventures fail to
capture my imagination either. Unfortunately, the later FF adventures (46+,
when alpha-numeric puzzles [A=1, B=2, ... Z=26) were gratuitous, and colour
maps were gone (bar 46) did little to inspire me. The plots seemed to be too
complex, and you'd actually have to get into the adventure, rather than
reading into it superficially, as I'm prone to do when strapped for time.
Moonrunner and Knights of Doom weren't too bad though. Then again, it's
probably because I haven't had the time to read these later adventures in
order to appreciate them to their full extent. However, Deathmoor and Siege
of Sardath just irritate me! (luckily I know have the solutions, though!).

Until, Paul Mason joined the list, I never really appreciated his stories
(excluding Slaves of the Abyss and the Riddling Reaver). I'd even voted in
Magehunter in Mark Popp's survey as the worst Fighting Fantasy book ever
written! However, solutions at fightingfantasy.com (and its predecessors)
and the phlegmatic yet rational Paul Mason's logic persuaded me otherwise.
I've also gained an appreciation for Black Vein Prophecy and the Crimson
Tide along the way too.

Well, that's it. Feel free to express your views towards this matter.
Remember, I'm only putting forward my opinions, not establishing a religious
dogma!

Tristan Taylor

>Daggers of Darkness, the book that introduced me to the world of Fighting
>Fantasy, is still regarded as one of my favourite FF books. Why? I guess the

I would probably consider this book as one of the worst in the series. I
guess I enjoy an adventure that is a little more linear (perish the
thought) than this book allowed. But then again, Luke Sharp is not my
favorite author.

>Well, I must admit (sorry, Paul) that the first time I read Slaves of the
>Abyss, I hated it! However, this was because I had (obviously) chosen the

I experienced the exact same thing. The book is just too bizarre to
properly enjoy right away. When I picked it up a few months later and
started flipping through it, I realized I couldn't put it down. It gets
quite good when you return to Kallamehr. You never quite understand what's
going on, but fortunately I enjoy strange and confusing books. :)

>Until, Paul Mason joined the list, I never really appreciated his stories
>(excluding Slaves of the Abyss and the Riddling Reaver). I'd even voted in
>Magehunter in Mark Popp's survey as the worst Fighting Fantasy book ever

Ugh, I hate it when you forget my middle initial. Actually, the survey does
say a lot more than meets the eye. It appears (and I would have to agree),
that Paul Mason's books were just too unusual for most people to
appreciate. Fortunately, I have come to appreciate his work (notably Slaves
and Crimson Tide). Although I do remember wondering what Paul M and Steve W
had been smoking when they wrote Slaves. :) Seriously, Paul must get some
congratulations on trying to expand the series, despite the fact most
people were satisfied with your typical dungeon crawl.

**************************************************************
Mark J. Popp

After much discussion and general hoohah regarding everyone's 
favourite books, I felt perhaps it was time that I put forth my own 
opinions on my personal favourites.  Note that the only book I've 
read past 40-odd is Return To Firetop Mountain.

First off, Warlock Of Firetop Mountain.  This is the book that got 
me interested in FF, role-playing and fantasy in general.  More than 
any other, this book has shaped my life and my interests to the 
point where they are today.  A triffic book.

Creature Of Havoc is, without a doubt, the best FF ever.  Several of 
my friends disagree with me on this, but that's because the stupid 
sods can't finish it.  Also a triffic book.

House Of Hell is great, certainly the best of those books not set on 
Titan.  Any book that features a guy with goat heads stuck to his 
shoulders gets the thumbs up from me.  Triffic, had me crapping 
my pants for months.

Deathtrap Dungeon is the classic archetypal FF.  Some really 
good death paragraphs in this one, always a bonus, plus you get 
rewarded for hurling insults.  Triffic.

Citadel Of Chaos.  Wheelies.  Triffic.  Does anyone else think a 
Saturday morning cartoon based on the Wheelies would have been 
an instant smash?

Incidentally, I'm going to put my hand up and say that I enjoyed 
both Beneath Nightmare Castle and Chasms Of Malice.  
Admittedly Chasms does tend to kill you off a little arbitrarily, 
though.  Not triffic, but pretty good nonetheless.

- Nathan Mahney -

> >Daggers of Darkness, the book that introduced me to the world of Fighting
> >Fantasy, is still regarded as one of my favourite FF books. Why? I guess the
> 
> I would probably consider this book as one of the worst in the series. I
> guess I enjoy an adventure that is a little more linear (perish the
> thought) than this book allowed. But then again, Luke Sharp is not my
> favorite author.

Well, I couldn't just let this topic go by without saying something, now
could I? Anyway, I must confess to having something of a pedestal that I
place FF on. I started reading them when I was quite young (about 6 or
so), and even though I didn't really understand them, I enjoyed them
nonetheless. I had a hard time collecting them all, so it was hard for
me to think that I didn't quite like a book after I went to so much
trouble to get it! I did, however, leave some of the ones that I had
borrowed from a friend and didn't really like as much until the end. So,
in regards to the quote upstairs, I would have to say that I like
Daggers of Darkness, even though I know it's not as good as some of the
other FF, simply because it's FF. I consider FF something I grew up
with, and consequently a part of me, trite as that sounds :).

> 
> >Well, I must admit (sorry, Paul) that the first time I read Slaves of the
> >Abyss, I hated it! However, this was because I had (obviously) chosen the
> 
> I experienced the exact same thing. The book is just too bizarre to
> properly enjoy right away. When I picked it up a few months later and
> started flipping through it, I realized I couldn't put it down. It gets
> quite good when you return to Kallamehr. You never quite understand what's
> going on, but fortunately I enjoy strange and confusing books. :)

Well, I must also agree with the above statements. The only difference
for me was the time between not liking it a heck of a lot (But at least
somewhat! Far be it from me to contradict myself...) to quite a bit.
These days, I would even go so far as to put Slaves on my top 15 FF
list. I thought the story line was more enthralling then some of the
other books (as per what was said before about the political intrigue -
I really got to hate Sige the Silent!), and I thought the journey into
the Abyss, while not exceptional, was certainly a nice change from the
usual stuff. I even like the ending (despite the changes), and I
remember thinking that it was one of the only endings that left me
wondering what happened to the character after it was all over (I
thought that it was better than, 'You're now a wealthy person. Joy!').

> 
> Ugh, I hate it when you forget my middle initial. Actually, the survey does
> say a lot more than meets the eye. It appears (and I would have to agree),
> that Paul Mason's books were just too unusual for most people to
> appreciate. Fortunately, I have come to appreciate his work (notably Slaves
> and Crimson Tide). Although I do remember wondering what Paul M and Steve W
> had been smoking when they wrote Slaves. :) Seriously, Paul must get some
> congratulations on trying to expand the series, despite the fact most
> people were satisfied with your typical dungeon crawl.

I also wanted to voice my support of Paul's work (and Steve too, where
it comes up). You sound like you really are quite unhappy with your
earlier stuff (the bit about only being able to read Magehunter tipped
me off on that one :) ), but you can rest assured that there are people
out there who really like it, myself included. I thought that Black Vein
Prophecy was really interesting (I had quite a spot of fun mutating the
bathers), and I quite enjoyed Crimson Tide as well (even though I can't
beat it without cheating - I thought the monestary was very cool indeed,
and contrary to what you said a while back, I did consider becoming a
monk to be a worthy ending, just not the best one! :) ). Like Mark said,
anything that tries to expand it's medium can't be all bad, and Paul's
books expand Titan and the series itself quite well if you ask me. I
remember wondering whay lay on the isles of the Dawn, and I have never
been dissatisfied with what I found there. I do think I might know what
you mean, though, if you'll allow me to presume as much. This is a bad
example, but it's all I can think of, and I'm getting tired. :) Anyway,
when I paint my Warhammer miniatures, many people praise me for it and
tell me I've done a stellar job (okay, a little shameless self-promotion
never hurt anyone), but being something of a perfectionist, I'm never as
satisfied as they seemed to be. Maybe some people are just more critical
of their own work than others, but I think that some people tend to be a
little _too_ hard on themselves, if you know what I mean. Anyway, I hope
I don't sound too much like a slack-jawed yokel with all this, and sorry
for the long-windedness (brevity was never my forte). In any case, happy
trails, everyone, and have a good night. 

Ben Pearson

> >boring. "Black Vein Prophecy", "The Crimson Tide",
> "Slaves to the
> >Abyss" and "Spellbreaker" were original, but not
> written well enough
> >(I'm expecting to get hate mail from Paul Mason
> now..), 
> 
> No chance. That's more complimentary than I usually
> get...

that's a relief... actually I thought "The Riddling Reaver" was really
really great so I don't why you, er, stuffed up on the other ones...
sorry.
by the way - were you joking about Ian Livingstone & Keith Martin being
on the FF mailing list?
sorry, maybe I'm not that quick, but...
 

 Personally, I think Warhammer stole a lot
> from FF, but no-one
> >noticed because the people who do FF or Warhammer
> are usually different
> 
> Wrong, wrong. Any resemblances come about because GW
> people wrote FF 
> books, and GW artists drew FF books. Warhammer
> predates FF anyway.

Hmm - I have the original Warhammer, which came out in 1982 (and is
totally different from the '90s version). There are no chaos warriors,
and the orcs are completely different. The 1984 version (the real 2nd
edition) is still along way from the '90s version. The 1987 hardback
book (the one a lot of people think is the original) is when the
FF-style orcs started coming along, and chaos warriors also - FF began
in 1983 and had already started using some of those Warhammer-style
parts by 1984/1985. Well, I may be wrong, but still...

> I also have a problem with space / futuristic FF
> adventures. Starship
> Traveller and the Rings of Kether rate poorly on my
> scale of enjoyable FF
> adventures. Whilst the mediocre (but plausible)
> Space Assassin and Star
> Strider did little to encourage my interest in the
> futuristic style
> adventures, I can't help but admire <gasp>.... Rebel
> Planet and Sky Lord!
> (critice me if you will)
I definitely will! while I'm sure people have had enough of me after I
voiced my opinions on "Revenge of the Vampire" (which no-one else seems
to share), - while "Sky Lord" is the worst FF book ever written (this
is fact, not opinion!), "Starship Traveller" was badly put together but
had some good moments, and "Space Assassin" was great, easily the best
sci-fi FF. It was the last sci-fi FF I read, because after reading the
others I thought there was no point, and I went into reading it
absolutely sure I'd hate it, trying to convince myself 'this is crap',
but it was very well written and original and definitely not 'too easy'
(did the person who said that read the bit where you have to guess the
right combination of tiles to walk across, when there is absolutely NO
logic to which one to choose, and there are lots of possible
combinations?)

William Wood

>Citadel Of Chaos.  Wheelies.  Triffic.  Does anyone else think a 
>Saturday morning cartoon based on the Wheelies would have been 
>an instant smash?

I always thought that Wheelies were one of the most absurd 
representatives of a pretty absurd set (FF monsters). Didn't stop us having 
a scene in Riddling Reaver of a bunch of Wheelies 'tossing a human', but 
then Riddling Reaver was a Southern Comfort-fuelled absurdist tract...

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

>Although I do remember wondering what Paul M and Steve W
>had been smoking when they wrote Slaves. :) 

Wise legal counsel restrains me from satiating your curiosity.

----
Best wishes

Paul Mason

> Not published: only the Red Dragon Pass I proposed - that you later
> refer to  as drivel. I only wrote about 60 paragraphs of that.

No, no, no! I meant what /I/ was saying was drivel... sorry about that,
I mean, I really do appreciate your work.

Simon Smith

(Re: Keith Martin)
Aha. You see, I remember something like that, which is why I asked if it
was his real name.

Of course, he put his name to the Zagor Chronicles, which were, lets
face it, utterly brilliant :-). Bow down and worship!

Cuddles! (see? I did it! ;-))
Simon Smith